In the beginning, it appears everyone was on the same page. Below is a Planned Parenthood pamphlet on family planning, as printed in 1952. Quote:
Is it an abortion?
Definitely not. An abortion requires an operation. It kills the life of a baby after it has begun. It is dangerous to your life and health. It may make you sterile so that when you want a child you cannot have it. Birth control merely postpones the beginning of life.
(Originally posted at prosanctityoflife.com on November 11, 2011.)
Every year, an email newsletter company named Constant Contact, gathers together statistics from over 200 million emails sent through their system and posts the data in their knowledgebase. The resulting chart of averages offers a benchmark for how your email outreach efforts are performing when compared to other competitors and partners in your niche.
The list ranges across 35 different industry categories, from accountants to animal services, from restaurants and bars to real estate. Here I’ve selected the following industries for a relatable comparison to the church-going audience.
Health & Social Services (ex. hospital, elder care, adoption services)
In this discussion, we’re primarily going to focus on unsubscribe rates, click-through rates (CTR) and open rates. Bounce rates are included in the chart, but simply offer an idea on how many of your emails are actually getting through. Bounce rates can be affected by company firewalls, incorrect email addresses, people moving to other jobs, etc., so we’re not going to dwell on them here.
Here are the statistics on those three categories and an additional three, for comparison.
Three Examples of Email Performance for Social Do-Gooders
Health & Social Services (ex. hospital, elder care, adoption services) Open Rate: 19.86% | Bounce: 9.66% | CTR: 9.08% | Unsubscribe: 0.19%
Technology (ex. web developer) Open Rate: 11.85% | Bounce: 11.27% | CTR: 6.02% | Unsubscribe: 0.16%
Metric #3. How Often Are They Leaving Your List? (a.k.a. Unsubscribes)
Interesting to note: Out of all 35 industry categories, religious organizations and civil/social membership groups had the lowest unsubscribe rates (0.08% for both), bested only by the publishing industry at 0.06%.
So, does this mean the greater the social mission, the greater loyalty you’ll enjoy from your list? Maybe there is guilt associated with unsubscribing from your church’s newsletter. Like somehow you’re turning your back on God, right?
Are the text-addicted (authors, publishers, book promoters, voracious readers and whomever else may fall into Contact’s “Publishing” category) even able to unsubscribe? Are there compulsive tendencies at play here? Do logophiles hoard electronic newsletters like they do books? Hmm..
Metric #2. Do You Compel Them to Read More? (a.k.a. Click-Through Rates)
Publishing also led the pack with click-through rate (CTR) over 13% (only three industries achieved double-digit CTR).
With the lowest contestant (beauty salons, tanning salons and barbers) pitching a dismal 4.18% CTR and publishing leading with 13%, all three of our altruistic subjects fell somewhere in the middle of the bell curve. Religious organizations ranked lowest of our three focus groups at 7.75%. This means for every 100 people who actually opened the email, only about eight of them were actually caught by the headlines and hook paragraphs you used.
Wait.. “Hook” Paragraphs?
And he saith unto them, Follow me, and I will make you fishers of men.
(Matthew 4:19)
Now, let’s face it. Oftentimes, enewsletter owners don’t even use hook paragraphs (a brief introduction to the article that compels people to click through and read more.) They often fall back to the old way of stuffing all their content into the newsletter like they used to do when they printed, sealed, stamped and sent.
This misses one of the big advantages of enewsletters: bringing your audience to you. If hook paragraphs are not being used, this could certainly kill your click-through rate. You might have a higher read rate, but alas, you’ll never know because there is currently no way to track if they read your whole email or if their mail client simply showed them a preview as they were hitting the delete key.
Metric #1. Do They Pretend Not to See You? (a.k.a. Open Rates)
Constant Contact breaks out open rates into three subcategories: mobile, desktop and tablet. For the sake of this discussion, let’s just focus on the overall open rate. (In case you’re wondering, tablets are the least-popular platform by far, with desktop and mobile being fairly balanced and the most widely-used.)
Religious organizations are the champions of the open rate, capturing a stunning 25.50%. Brilliant. I would say this probably points to the hearts of the subscriber-base. If they are plugged into your church enough to have joined your mailing list, they’re invested—for the moment. Their commitment to you may wane or build, but it depends upon your engagement efforts and certainly, the Holy Spirit.
Again, keep in mind “open rate” does not mean “read rate”, so if your open rate seems high but your click-through rate is low, there may be room for improvement. You may want to study how to write better headlines for your articles.
You may also consider segmenting your email list according to your click-through activity. Look for trends in interest. If you put out an article on Christian apologetics and an article on the history of the Protestant Reformation, look to see which article received the highest CTR. If apologetic teaching received the most clicks, you know you may want to produce more teaching and analysis on defending the faith.
Building Your Email List (a.k.a. Your Call to Arms)
In your digital evangelism efforts, building up your followers (in both quantity and in spiritual maturity) and communicating to your followers is the life’s blood of your outreach efforts. Being able to communicate to paid staff, your army of volunteers, and your congregation at a moment’s notice is only the starting point. Whether you’re educating for truth, entertaining for fun, promoting the next fundraiser or sending an emergency broadcast to your community, arming your organization with the knowledge and tools to push news and updates into inboxes is a powerful way to get the Word out.
Don’t have a good email marketing system? You’re not currently collecting email addresses from your website, you say? We recommend Aweber for its reporting and the ability to automatically send out weekly newsletters based upon your blog posts. Let us know if you need help getting set up or if you have questions about the service.
References
Constant Contact. Average Industry Rates. Retrieved from
https://knowledgebase.constantcontact.com/articles/KnowledgeBase/5409-average-industry-rates
About the Author
A recovering marketing professional, Matthew Schoenherr has been moved from building his own kingdom to advancing thee Kingdom. Matthew provides digital evangelism training and solutions to Christian churches and faith-based non-profits. He may be reached through the Levaire website.
Recently, I stumbled upon a Facebook post by an organization named echurch. They were marketing an ebook called “The Ultimate Guide for Reaching Millennials.” Of course, they were giving the ebook away in exchange for your contact details (known as a tripwire in digital marketing vernacular) whereby echurch invited you to receive a demo of their mobile tithing platform with the hopes of getting your business.
While the guide itself was ‘fine’—which is somewhere between ‘meh’ and ‘holy cats, that was brilliant’—it was, by no means, ‘ultimate’. Though 26 pages in length, there was only about 15 pages of content, once you got past the front and back covers, the author bio, table of contents, a big call-to-action and several half-filled pages. A little slow to start, I was pleased when they eventually pointed to some hard research around declining millennial church attendance and giving.
All in all, I was smarter about the millennial generation than when I started.
But this post isn’t about how well the echurch ebook did or didn’t do its job.
Marketing Myopia in the Church
This post is about the myopic reaction by Christians to an ebook intended to better equip the Church in evangelizing the millennial generation.
The post was initially promoted on Facebook, and after about a week of hanging out there, negative comments began to filter in. Unfortunately, instead of holding a dialog with the dissenting opinion-holders, echurch simply hid the post from their feed. Too bad, as I think they have a strong case and really could have used the opportunity to engage their audience.
Let’s dive into some of the comments. (Typos have been allowed to remain.)
Facebook Folly Follows
I guess this would include millennials?
Romans 1:16-17 ~ For I am not ashamed of the gospel of Christ, for it is the power of God to salvation for everyone who believes, for the Jew first and also for the Greek. For in it the righteousness of God is revealed from faith to faith: as it is written, “The just shall live by faith.”
This comment seems to miss the mark. The guide discusses how to reach millennials. Reaching people is the step before growing people in boldness and faith.
I haven’t read this book, but Hasn’t God already written a book with the answer to reaching all of mankind?
Waitwaitwait.. so you’re chiming in on something you haven’t even investigated? Awesome.
Actually, I think the Word is more about Jesus and our identity in Him than a playbook for reaching all mankind. If it was an answer to reaching all mankind, no one would ever reject the Gospel, and yet we know many do. In fact, the Pharisees and Sadducees knew the Old Testament by heart. They should have been better positioned than anyone to recognize the Messiah. Yet, the Messiah of prophesy actually stood before them in the flesh—teaching and working miracles before their very eyes—and they nailed Him to a Roman cross.
If the word of God don’t reach millennials we in big trouble yaw. Just preach the word. It’s irrefutable, it’s infallible and its inerrant.
Here someone spoke up. Tom P said, “Correct, but they need to hear it first…”
Right?
Try this simple experiment. From the comfort of your home office, play an audio recording of someone reading the Bible. Leave your office and close the door behind you. Let this symbolize the Church.
Now, invite a bunch of people over but never invite them into your office where the Bible audio is playing. Instead, have a party, with food and drinks and games and much socializing. Listen to music. Watch a movie. The rest of your home represents the world.
At the end of the evening, after everyone goes home, how many decisions for Christ happened while the Word was playing away in your office? What? None, you say? But the Word was preached the entire time!
There seems to be a notion that the Word of God is enough to bring people to conviction, confession and conversion. I wish that was the case. I do. But if that were the case, there would be no reason to separate the sheep from the goats in Matthew 25:31-46. There would be no need for the judgement. People would simply be exposed to the Word, turn from their wicked ways, and fall in love with Jesus. Evangelism could be effected by piping the Word through loud speakers atop a van rolling down the street and all within earshot would be saved.
When they (people of any age) encounter Jesus, God, Holy Spirit they will want more of Him. If the Holy Spirit is not in that church, and the Church not built under His direction it’s all man’s efforts and will come to nought. Psalm 127:1
For the record, Psalm 127:1 (KJV) says “Except the Lord build the house, they labour in vain that build it: except the Lord keep the city, the watchman waketh but in vain.”
Unless I’m missing the intention behind this comment (possible), the author is indicating once people get a taste of God, they will want more. If that was the case, what about Matthew 27:21-24, where Jesus clearly tells us not everyone who says, “Lord, Lord” will enter the Kingdom? This should terrify us, right? That means there are church-going Christians who won’t see Heaven. Look up Jesus’ words to the Laodicean church in Revelation 3:14-22 and tell me those people didn’t think they were in good standing. Then recognize the seven churches described in Revelation also reflect the ages the Church will pass through prior to the end of days. The Laodicean church is in full operation today.
Reaching this demographic is easy … just give them everything they want and allow them to take no responsibility whatsoever… problem solved.
Man, I don’t think Jesus talks about us this way. If we don’t see it in Him, we’re not to see it in us.
Sounds interesting but why do they require so much personal information to get the Ebook?
Because they’re looking for the lowest conversion rate possible? Just guessing. Yes, this is a marketing mistake on their part. As was pulling this thread from their feed.
Why are millennials any different from any of the rest of mankind? We all have sinned and fallen short of the mark, and are in need of a saviour. The message has not changed, nor has God’s grace and mercy which we all are in desperate need of. The message is timeless, and sufficient.
Another comment that misses the point of the ebook being how to reach the millennial “nation”. Jesus said “go forth and make disciples of all nations,” not “build big buildings and worry about how to keep the lights on.”
Though the ebook doesn’t mention a single line of Scripture (which should be odd to us coming from an organization calling themselves “echurch” but we can recognize PushPay is secular first), the Gospel message isn’t in doubt here.
It’s our ability to deliver the Gospel message that is being assisted.
So I guess this will change with every generation? This communicates that God needs help.
Well, brother, God isn’t up there ordaining everything that happens. He did tell us to go forth and subdue the earth. We are given a sword and a shield for a reason. Jesus did tell us to go forth and make disciples of all nations, not quietly sit at home and count ourselves saved. What did Jesus do? What did He raise His apostles to do? Then I guess that’s probably what we’re called to do too, right?
No, God doesn’t need our help; we need His.
The only thing is the blood of Jesus. Anything else is Bogas!
Not sure I even need to grace this one with a response. Same misplaced defensive posture as the others.
Jesus makes them “tick”.
Once they know Him, yes. Before then, we call those folks “lost”.
This is needed.
Finally, someone gets it.
To Evangelize Who We Can, We Do What We Can
As you can tell by my commentary, by the time I read to the end of this thread, I was appalled. I asked a pastor friend of mine if his church ever did any marketing to their local community.
He said, “Oh yes. You have to.”
Just as I suspected.
Then he pointed out, “Even Jesus was heralded by John the Baptist.”
Do you get that?
Jesus had a PR guy that set the stage for His ministry. His name was John.
So if you think the Word of God will convert everyone it reaches, then you haven’t read your Bible. Israel even had God living among them and they still turned to idols. Over and over and over. Are you kidding?
Paul says in 1 Corinthians 9:22 “I am made all things to all men, that I might by all means save some.” I think his example to us is to do what we can to reach those we can.
I challenge us to recognize the difference between delivering the Good News and receiving the Good News. The intention to reach the millennial generation is a good one.
Just as Paul spoke Greek to Greeks and Hebrew to Jews, so too must we learn our audience and do our part to connect them with the Gospel. It is by the blood of the Lamb ~and~ the word of our testimony.
Yes, all fruit comes through the Holy Spirit, but it is we—made in His image—who have been commanded to go forth and work the fields.
Whether you are a church or faith-based organization, for your website to be seen on the Internet, it must be hosted on a secure server with a reliable connection to the Internet; this is web hosting.
Web hosting is the Internet service that allows you to make your website accessible via the World Wide Web. Web hosting companies provide the hosting environment, which includes the servers, routers, switches, backup power generators, secure and climate-controlled facilities, Internet connectivity through multiple carriers and support necessary to present a website to the world. There is a wide range of pricing for web hosting services, starting from free up to thousands monthly.
With so many options to consider, choosing a web host for your church isn’t always an easy task. The most important factor in selecting a church-friendly web host is ensuring they provide everything you need.
What hosting plan do I need?
Before choosing your web hosting package, identify your needs. As with all hosting plans, there will be some features you need and some you don’t. Make sure you focus on the essentials required to launch your website. You may want all the nice extras but will you use them?
It’s also a good idea to try and pick a host that will allow you to expand and increase your plan as your website grows. If you want to start selling online, upgrading to a larger e-commerce hosting plan is easier and quicker to implement than transferring to a new host.
What types of web hosting plans are there?
Web hosting plans range from free personal homepage hosting to packages that support large global corporate websites.
As an example, Levaire offers the following hosting packages for churches. These hosting packages increase in size and scope as you move from the smallest (Exodus) to the largest (Revelation). Packages will vary from web host to web host, so knowing your needs (disk space, bandwidth, etc) in advance will help the host-shopping process tremendously.
Finally, many hosts can tailor their hosting plans to you, so don’t be afraid to ask!
Benefits to hosting with Levaire
Host your web site with your chosen domain name to help establish a recognizable identity for your organization.
Our powerful online control panel makes it easy to administer your web hosting account.
24/7/365 website monitoring ensures peace of mind. Your website is up when your personnel need it and your customers expect it.
Let us create your full-featured, easy-to-update website, based on the powerful WordPress content management systems.
SEO-targeted keywords and customer-focused content helps your website generate qualified traffic.
Order with confidence knowing that web hosting reliability is assured, backed by an unconditional 30-day money-back guarantee.
Have a church event you’re looking to promote? Wondering how to market your next charity fundraising event? Here are 18 great ideas for marketing your next event.
DURING THE YEAR LEADING UP TO YOUR EVENT
1. INTERVIEW SPEAKERS PRIOR TO THE EVENT
Use video and/or written interviews to capture leader commentary prior to the event. Share this material with your audience to build anticipation, gather mindshare and offer shareable content.
2. OFFER AN ADVERTORIAL
Offer to promote original, never-been-published-online articles from your speakers on your website. (800 words and up is the goal for these articles, but take what you can get.) This gives the speakers an additional platform and exposure, and creates more value for your website.
Be sure to let the speakers know the promotion plan for their content (e.g. you’ll share with the email list, on your social media channels, and their content may even be used in future video or marketing efforts.) End each article with a short bio (two sentences max) and mention a way to get in touch with the author, including a backlink to their site.
Variation: Are they interested in getting a similar guest post for their own site? Ask if they would like a reciprocal article on the target topic for their own audience. This brings more exposure for your organization and event and more value to their site.
3. TURN CHAMPIONS INTO AFFILIATES
Offer sign-up discounts to key partners, speakers and sponsors for them to share with their audiences. Because each promotional code will be unique, you will be able to see who is promoting your event by how many times the promo code is used. Here’s a scenario described by Orbit Media:
“Example: Create a promotion code “BOB50” that gives $50 off to registrants. Share this code with Bob, your keynote speaker. Bob starts tweeting the code to his network and registrations start rolling in. In the end, the registration report in Eventbrite shows you the code was used ten times. Now you can write Bob a check for $500 (and a thank you card) for his help promoting the event.”
4. USE YOUR CITY EVENT CALENDARS
Has your event been added to the venue’s local event calendars? Most news outlets, chambers of commerce, trade associations and visitor and convention bureaus have some sort of online event calendar. If you have your dates nailed down well in advance, have you reached out to these organizations to get into any of their printed guides?
5. RAMP UP NETWORKING
The night before the event, offer a dinner for speakers, thought leaders and the press. This brings bonding, facilitates conversation around key topics and helps to intimate the press to your cause.
First night of the event? Invite everybody. Think icebreakers, entertainment, and drink coupons or find a way to mix all three.
6. GET YOUR PRESENTERS ON THE SAME PAGE
To help brand the event, offer PowerPoint and Keynote templates to the speakers as thee template to use while they’re building their slide deck.
Warning: Be flexible here. Speakers who lean more “prima donna” will likely want to use their own look and feel, while other presenters may barely know how to build a presentation. Offer help to those who want it and forgiveness to those who don’t.
7. SELL AND SEND YOUR WEARABLES (IN ADVANCE)
What promotional good does it do to sell event t-shirts or hats at the actual event? Get more promotional value out of your wearable souvenirs by selling them months before the event. Don’t want to deal with inventory and shipping? Upload your designs to any number of print-on-demand services like Cafepress or Zazzle and allow champions to order directly, selecting their own sizes and colors while leaving you out of the middle.
Note: You’ll want to order these items early for your sponsors and speakers for the same reason.
8. HOW IS THAT LOGO?
Your event logo had better be attractive. Time for a refresh? (See “SELL AND SEND YOUR WEARABLES (IN ADVANCE)” above.) Don’t have a budget for this? Hold a design contest among the art departments of local colleges, winner takes bragging rights. You may also be able to economically farm this out through services like Fiverr, Upwork or LogoTournament.com. (Oh, and we’ve made a few logos ourselves.)
9. DOVETAIL WITH SIMILAR LOCAL EVENTS
Reach out to other event managers or partners to identify cross-pollination opportunities where you can promote each other’s events to your respective lists. Are there opportunities to combine forces or even join the events together in some way? Staff and volunteer time, marketing efforts and dollars go farther when combined. At the very least, this kind of coordination can keep you from accidentally competing with each other’s events.
10. NO BUDGET FOR PHOTOGRAPHY OR VIDEO?
Partner with local professional photographers or videographers to capture key moments in your event. No budget for this? Offer them a sponsorship package in exchange, where their sweat-equity in your event gains them promotional ROI. Your sponsorship plans probably include free attendance, a table or place to advertise, sharing their logo in numerous places throughout the event, links to their site, social media call-outs, etc.
Variation: Have a smaller event? Reach out to the local colleges and see if any students (or professors) want to capture the event in exchange for portfolio work. Treat it as a professional job, of course, by walking the venue and developing a shot list with them prior to the event.
Reminder: Write up a contract detailing the exchange so everyone is on the same page and no misunderstandings bubble up after the event. Expectations for all deliverables should be spelled out and agreed upon well in advance. Be sure to document licensing, ownership and usage rights, media formats and the process for handing over digital assets.
11. GET ORGANIZED ABOUT CORPORATE SPONSORSHIPS
Drumming up interest in sponsoring an event requires organization and persistence. Potential sponsors usually want to know they will receive some sort of return on their investment. Sponsor packages need to be thoughtful and valuable beyond the simple feel-good offered by underwriting your event.
Warning: Part-time attention on building a sponsor base most often leads to lack-luster results. Start outreach early and research other sponsorship packages to get ideas for bringing value to your sponsor offerings.
12. PARTNER WITH LOCAL BUSINESSES
Approach local businesses and offer to advertise discounts and coupons for their shops in your event guide. If reciprocity seems to fit, maybe they can prominently display an event flyer or share the event on social media in exchange. Call attention to the promotions during the event. You may even agree to target your after-hours networking opportunities at these local venues.
13. ASK INDUSTRY PARTNERS TO RAISE THE BANNER
Why are you doing all this advertising on your own? Ask your industry partners to advertise the event with you. Make it easy for them by providing an attractive banner graphic for them to place on their websites. Banners sized 300 x 250 pixels seem to read well across most display platforms; start there. If you’re more technologically-savvy, you can simply send them the code for sharing the banner on their website. This allows you to later change the graphic to a save-the-date and begin promoting the next event right away, without them having to lift a finger. Of course, include a link to your event details in all you do.
SOCIAL MEDIA SHARING
14. CLICK-TO-TWEET REGISTRATION CONFIRMATION PAGE
On the registration thank you page displayed once registration has been completed, offer a Click-to-Tweet link to help attendees promote their interest in the event.
Better, bribe them with a reduced registration fee. Give them a “Sign me up and yes, I’ll promote your event in 3 ways!” option for a $5 discount. Obviously, this is done on the honor system. You might also offer sponsor coupons for promotional activity, e.g. $5 off coffee coupon for tagging your organization as they promote your event on their social media channel.
15. OFFER SHAREABLE CONTENT
Offer your sign-ups, sponsors and speakers promotional graphics, email and tweet templates. This helps them share your event and has the added bonus of giving them content for their own sites and social media channels.
16. REGISTRATION AUTO-RESPONSE EMAIL
In your registration confirmation email, compel your new sign-ups to connect with you on your social media channels. Remind them to use the event hashtag as they share their excitement about attending the event.
17. THANK THEM
Whether it’s from the goodness of your heart or you’ve baked it into your sponsor package, be sure to thank your speakers, sponsors, partners and attendees on social media.
BEFORE THE DUST HAS SETTLED
18. USE YOUR POST-EVENT SURVEY TO PROMOTE THE NEXT EVENT
If possible, announce the next save-the-date in your event materials and the survey you send immediately following the event. (You are sending a post-event survey, right? Use SurveyMonkey.)
Tip: This survey should be sent within hours of event close; not weeks later.
Did we miss something? I’m sure we did! This was by no means a comprehensive list. Feel free to share your ideas in the comments below. What event marketing ideas have you seen work? What ideas totally bombed? Your thoughts can help others succeed in expanding the Kingdom, so please share!
REFERENCES
Crestodina, Andy. How to Market an Event: 50 Event Marketing Tips. Orbit Media Studios. Retrieved from https://www.orbitmedia.com/blog/how-to-market-an-event/.
Will. Event Promotion 101: 15 Creative Ways to Market Your Event. One Spot Social. Retrieved from https://onspotsocial.com/event-promotion-101-15-creative-ways-to-market-your-event/.
The exclusive claim of salvation by Jesus Christ is oftentimes one of the most offensive claims by Christianity. The world just doesn’t want to be held accountable to this one. First seen on Facebook, this thread was a good example of folks holding a respectful debate in the public square. Thank you to all those who contributed. Matthew
[Matthew] Either Jesus was crazy, lying or telling the truth. The exclusive claim by Christianity is one of the hot-buttons for non-believers who want to believe there are many paths to God. Christians are called to love others in all they do, including when sharing truth. Be salt, but do it in love.
[Joe] What if Jesus wasn’t being literal? What if Jesus was the personification of love, and love is the only way to the Father?
[Kelly] word.
[Lauren] Our small group just discussed what salt is and what it means. We’re doing an Andy Stanley study called “What Is Christian?” He made the point that salt was a preservative at that time and was used to keep meat from rotting. So followers of Jesus are to be preserving those around us by surrounding them with love and meeting their needs. Because we love beyond what anyone else would think reasonable, we show people who God is.
[Molly] That way is the Way of LOVE. Jesus opened the gate for us to return to God, it is up to us to seek that path for ourselves.
[Matthew] Well, if Jesus wasn’t being literal and was simply saying He was synonymous with love, someone should have told His apostles, Peter and John:
Acts 4 (NKJV)
4 Now as they spoke to the people, the priests, the captain of the temple, and the Sadducees came upon them, 2 being greatly disturbed that they taught the people and preached in Jesus the resurrection from the dead. 3 And they laid hands on them, and put them in custody until the next day, for it was already evening. 4 However, many of those who heard the word believed; and the number of the men came to be about five thousand.
5 And it came to pass, on the next day, that their rulers, elders, and scribes, 6 as well as Annas the high priest, Caiaphas, John, and Alexander, and as many as were of the family of the high priest, were gathered together at Jerusalem. 7 And when they had set them in the midst, they asked, “By what power or by what name have you done this?”
8 Then Peter, filled with the Holy Spirit, said to them, “Rulers of the people and elders of Israel: 9 If we this day are judged for a good deed done to a helpless man, by what means he has been made well, 10 let it be known to you all, and to all the people of Israel, that by the name of Jesus Christ of Nazareth, whom you crucified, whom God raised from the dead, by Him this man stands here before you whole. 11 This is the ‘stone which was rejected by you builders, which has become the chief cornerstone.’ 12 Nor is there salvation in any other, for there is no other name under heaven given among men by which we must be saved.”
13 Now when they saw the boldness of Peter and John, and perceived that they were uneducated and untrained men, they marveled. And they realized that they had been with Jesus. 14 And seeing the man who had been healed standing with them, they could say nothing against it.
[Kelly] John 4.8 NiV Whoever does not love does not know God, because God is love.
[Kelly] Corinthians 13:13 And now these three remain: faith, hope and love. But the greatest of these is love
[Kelly] Romans 13:10 Love does no harm to a neighbor. Therefore love is the fulfillment of the law.
[Kelly] John 4:16 So we have come to know and to believe the love that God has for us. God is love, and whoever abides in love abides in God, and God abides in him
[Matthew] Sooo… you’re saying Peter and John were wrong?
[Kelly] You may call God love, you may call God goodness. But the best name for God is compassion. Meister Eckhart
[Molly] Jesus reconciled the old law and created the Law of Love. That is the one to follow.
[Matthew] I don’t dispute for a second that Jesus taught love. The opening sentiment on this thread (which is backed up by the apostles) doesn’t lessen a message of love. That there is a shared moral ethic among many world religions is not in question. What is being asserted by these verses is a claim of exclusivity and the hope of eternal salvation offered under a single name. Though many world religions offer a shared message of love, they vary widely in their portrayal of life purpose, the afterlife, and a need for salvation. It is the claim to exclusivity that is the point of common contention. It does seem to be what Jesus taught.
[Joe] So you give equal weight to the Apostles as you do the word of Jesus Himself?
[Matthew] So, you’re saying the apostles were wrong. After three years of living with Him, witnessing His resurrection and receiving the Holy Spirit, they were still confused about His precepts? I guess I’m more willing to believe you and I are confused before I’m willing to believe they were confused. Joe, do you believe in the deity of Christ? If so, what was God’s first commandment to the Israelites?
[Joe] Excellent argument. God’s First Commandment is “I am the Lord Your God. Thou shall not put other gods before me.” Therefore you must NOT weigh the opinions of the apostles the same as you would God or Jesus, lest you put the opinions of men before God’s.
[Kelly] Apostles are men, whom receive their own interpretation which is always subject to flaw and self explanatory experience that in itself can be misinterpreted.
[Matthew] I’m not saying the apostles’ words ring louder than Jesus’ teaching. God forbid! But to dismiss their teaching as errant is to say Jesus failed in His mission to establish the early church through the apostles. If the apostles were guilty of spreading false doctrine and that false doctrine is now Scripture, God is either inept or wicked. Inept, in that He was quickly undermined by human error after Jesus’ departure and could not protect His Word. Wicked, if He chose not to protect it and has allowed His truth to be contorted. So I think we probably need to understand that Jesus chose these men; not the other way around.
[Jeannie] So you don’t believe in free will? That God can either be all good OR all powerful. Not both?
[Kelly] Isn’t his truth contorted already with other versions of Christianity
[Matthew] Kelly, what people do with truth once they have it does not reduce the truth itself. People will reject and bend truth as their fallen natures call, or they will adopt a humble heart, die to self-will and bend themselves to align with the truth.
[Matthew] Joe, of course I believe in free will, but the prayer is “Thy will be done,” not “my will be done.” Subjecting your free will to His is still exercising free will. I’m not saying the Christian claim to exclusivity is a comfortable one. I do assert as we step under His lordship, we must cast aside all other notions that there are many paths to God. That’s not what God taught the Israelites. That’s not what Jesus taught the apostles. That’s not the Gospel taught by the apostles to the early church.
[Matthew] As for God being all good and all powerful, those things are true.
[Joe] Matt, if you read the bible carefully you will see vast majority of Jesus’ teachings were in parables. Yet, his apostles took his words literally. I believe the literal interpretation, while well-intentioned, was and is a mistake.
[Matthew] I guess I’m assuming His apostles knew Him better than we do?
[Matthew] I just want to say how much I appreciate being able to have a calm, engaging debate about this topic. Thank you, all.
[Joe] Forest for the trees?
[Joe] Also, you are assuming the bible has never changed from its original Aramaic, was never manipulated to justify control (why are there two versions of the New Testament?), or eliminated voices of any female followers like Mary Magdaline too.
Matt Schoenherr https://youtu.be/bSM3qMvN9JA
Only 66 books in the Bible — why the Apocrypha and Gnostic Gospels…
[Kelly] Forest for the trees
[Michele] This string is fascinating, and like Matt I am impressed to have witnessed a civil dialogue about religion. I find it a bit ironic that you’re using the argument that the word of the apostles shouldn’t have the same weight as the ones of Jesus himself when in fact the entire Bible is the writings of others. You either think it can be relied on to explain the words of the lord or you don’t. I too believe some versions/translations aren’t as accurate as others – but that could just as easily support Matt’s point.
[Kelly] I find truth in many places but I don’t limit my search for it either.
[Joe] Michele, why not? If you’re going to use the book as the basis of the argument (which in itself is debatable to its lack of completeness and accuracy as I’ve already pointed out) then the argument over who said what and what’s more important is a valid argument to have.
[Matthew] Joe, actually, the argument for both translation and transmission errors has long been laid to rest. Of all the books of antiquity on the planet, the 66 books that make up the Bible prove to have the greatest historical evidence of authenticity. We have over 5700 copies, shreds and pieces of the Greek New Testament documents alone. The next best documented book? Homer’s Iliad at around 2300 copies. Funny, no one ever refutes that we have the Iliad. I think that’s probably because there’s not much accountability called out in the Iliad. Most errors found in the copies we have are simple spelling errors.
[Joe] Matthew, then why are there two versions of the New Testament? King James and Catholic.
[Michele] You can’t on one hand say the apostles writings can’t be relied on because they mischaracterized Jesus’ intentions and on the other point to other writings and say – this part is really what he meant. You are essentially picking and choosing to fit what you’d like to be the case or what you think it should be. You’re by no means unique in that – people across the globe manipulate religious teachings to suit their own needs. At the end of the day it comes down to faith – even if there wasn’t reams of archeological evidence to support biblical writings – I’d still believe it was true.
[Joe] Michele, I think you’re misunderstanding my comments. Yes, I do question the absolute validity of the bible. I believe it most likely has been manipulated, and at the very least exclusionary based on the heavily patriarchal mindset of the time it was written. However, for the sake of this argument, I am allowing the assumption that it is at least reasonably accurate. Therefore, my argument of weighing the words of Jesus heavier than the words of the Apostles holds according to either version of the new testament. I have a spiritual concern with the thought of God not allowing those who care for others, but are not Christian, being excluded from Heaven, but a serial murderer who accepts Christ on death row doesn’t. I have a moral concern with those who take Matt’s argument much, much farther and kill others based on the belief only Christians get into Heaven. In respect to the latter, there is no fundamental difference between this form of Christianity and terrorism (radical Islam or others.)
[Matthew] Joe, I hear your heart-cry, man. I am also in the process of wading through the doctrine of hell to get a better understanding for the heart of our Father. I would clarify one thing though: true Christian fundamentalism looks like Jesus, the same way true Islamic fundamentalism looks like Mohammad, the same way true Buddhism looks like Buddha. You know the tree by the fruit it bears. If “Christian” behavior or teaching doesn’t reflect Jesus, it’s just wearing a Christian label. Further, if you can’t see it in the life of Jesus, it doesn’t reflect the Father. Jesus is our intercessor. As the “Last Adam,” He models to us what a perfect human life was intended to look like. Through Him too, we also know the will of the Father. Jesus modeled crazy, supernatural love. He also taught there is a judgment and a need for repentance and a saviour. I guess I want to confirm the confusion you feel around the doctrine of hell and salvation; I’m right there with you, brother. I’ve recently stumbled across some teaching that is helping me make sense of it, but I’m still working through that process. That material explores where the notion of eternal conscious torment for sins came from and how the Bible may not actually teach that at all (though the context we understand seems to point to it.)
[Joe] Matthew, I can appreciate that and also appreciate this conversation. I can tell you I am at peace in my relationship with God and His order. I do believe in Jesus and His purpose in showing us love as the way. In my spiritual journey, I’ve gone from obedient Catholic alter boy to a person who no longer actively subscribes to organized religion, or as I affectionately refer to them as “God’s dealerships.” I no longer feel the need to attend a dealership for my soul’s maintenance. I do not fault those who do believe in organized religion, though those who take it to extremes do bother me. For a great many people they serve as a regular reminder to be good and kind to one another. I find no fault in that. I’ve learned to seek His wisdom through love and understanding, and pray for His peace when I cannot understand why things the way they are. None of us will know for sure who is right (if there’s a right at all) until we can ask Him for ourselves. Until then, the more I can model and encourage others to show love and acceptance. And hope He has a sense of humor.
[Jeannie] Of course He does! You’ve seen a giraffe haven’t you!
